<< More 2010 Origins Coverage -- Friday | (Lots) More 2010 Origins Coverage -- Saturday >>

Your Milage May Vary (Dedicated Transport Rant)

Posted by gbprime on 8. July 2010 11:09

In running this year's Origins events, we had a number of interesting rulings come up, as you might expect. Most of them we ruled correctly on, a few we got wrong, and one in particular I WISH I had gotten wrong, but didn't.

I'm talking about dedicated transports. The problem is, the main 40k rulebook just doesn't have much to say about them. They're a squad option now, other units can use them but not start the game mounted up in them, and (thanks to the GW FAQ) we know they count as separate units for purposes of shooting.

But what about victory points or kill points? Or unit cohesion? Well apparently, they leave that up in the air. The rulebook just doesn't address it. Some of the newer army books do (the ones written since 5th Ed), but the older ones (and their online errata/FAQ's) do not.

So here's the problem, an actual case study from the Origins RTT... Daemonhunters army, an Inquisitor and Retinue (150 points) picked a Land Raider (250 points) as their dedicated transport. At the end of the game, the character and retinue died to a man, but the Land Raider was unharmed. And the game was decided on Victory Points.

Now Codex Daemonhunters (print or online PDF), being a 4th Ed army book, does not say anything extra about dedicated transports, so we go to the 5th Ed Rulebook to figure this out. The transport isn't listed as a separate unit, so it counts as an option purchased for the squad. So the opponant who killed the inquisitor and retinue but not the Land Raider has inflicted 50% or more casualties on the squad, but has not wiped it out. So according to page 300 of the rulebook, he gets 50% the total value of the squad, which is 200 points. (Half of the character and retinue, and half of the undamaged land raider, because it is a purchased squad option.)

But any 5th Ed Army book will say in the description of the dedicated transport that it doesn't take up a force org slot BUT OTHERWISE COUNTS AS A SEPARATE UNIT. So not only is unit cohesion crystal clear on that one (thanks guys!), but Victory Points are back to the classic way of doing it. The 150 point squad with a 250 point dedicated land raider in the above scenario is worth 150 victory points.

But the real problem... is that we are counting victory points differently depending on which Codex the army is from. Same body count, Codex Daemonhunters gives up 200 VP while Codex Space Marines gives up 150 VP. (Codex Tau Empire, for example, is in the same boat as Daemonhunters, so don't assume it's just the PDF-only army books that are subject to this.)

The solution... would be for GW to insert one sentence on page 67 of the rulebook, either in an errata or an FAQ, the same sentence they're putting in every new army book. "These vehicle choices do not use up any force org selections but otherwise count as separate units."

And if GW hasn't done this by next year's Origins RTT, expect a house rule to that effect. Victory points should never be calculated differently depending on the army being used. That way madness lies.

9df0a576-4930-4471-9033-e30c8c2768d3|6|1.0

Comments: 12

Filed Under: Editorials | Gaming

Tags:

Review of the New Tyranid Codex - HQNow that I've depressed all of you over the possible/apparent problems with the new Tyranid book...More Orks and Goblins Coming in MayGW just sent out an email reporting that something special for Orks and Goblins will be arriving in ...Tyranid Unit ReviewA Look at (Most) of the Tyranid Units

Comments (12) -

sonsoftaurus said,

Really?  I didn't think that this would be an issue.

pp. 3-5  talk about units and unit types, and they're detailed further on of course.  One of the basic concepts of units is that they're all the same type.  The rules, including VP rules, don't work with mixed unit types.

p.67 talks about dedicated transports being "selected together with the unit" - not as a *part* of the unit.  Further, "the only limitation of a dedicated transport..." - so it does not need to maintain coherency, does not take morale tests with the unit it was selected with, etc. and is treated as its own unit.

p. 93 under Dawn of War deployment specifies that dedicated transports are separate units.

p.300 under victory points only talks about units, and it has been established that transports are distinct units, so should be treated distinctly for VP purposes.

"Unit" does not equal FOC slot.  A squad and its transport are two units even though purchased under one FOC slot, same as a platoon HQ is a different unit than the other squads bought as an IG infantry platoon all under one FOC slot.

Steven Beasley said,

How about not using Victory Points at all and just go with the standard Kill Points? It's way faster to calculate and less prone to error at the end of a game.

gbprime said,

My point is that page 67 isn't clear at all. I admit I didn't recall the bit on page 92. That seems to be the only section of the rules that covers it. Is it universal, or applicable only to the book scenarios? (And if it's universal, why bury it there?)

Kill points are indeed easier than victory points, less math foo. But you still have the same problem in that kill points are per unit. Some army books and scenarios define a dedicated transport as a separate unit, some do not.

sonsoftaurus said,

p. 67 does cover it with "selected together with the unit", not as part of the unit.  The rules simply don't work trying to make vehicles and non-vehicles part of the same unit.

I hit the "unit" of five Sisters and Rhino with four lascannons.  There's no methodology for how to distribute the hits.  Do you just go with majority toughness, and since the Rhino has no toughness anyways, go with the Sister's T3?  If I wound with all four lascannons, can the Sister's player then allocate a "wound" to the Rhino?  If so do I need to then roll for penetration, having already rolled to wound?  Or are transports essentially immune to fire while part of their squad is still alive?

If it's part of the same unit, a transport doesn't block LOS or provide cover for the rest of its unit, right?

What coherency distance has to be maintained?  If the transport is immobilized, does that mean the rest of the unit has to stay with it since they have to maintain coherency?

The rules don't address these types of things because they don't need to, as these types of hybrid "units" don't exist.

Steven Beasley said,

Page 87 clears this up. There is a section on dedicated transports that clearly states that the dedicated transport is of the same type of unit that it is being taken with, but distinctly calls the vehicle its own unit of that type.

gbprime said,

Page 87 only clears up the unit classification as Troops/Fast Attack/Heavy Support, etc.

And if page 67 in fact clarifies everything, then why the question about embarked units firing at separate targets in the official GW FAQ ? I still think it's not clear in the rulebook and needs to be.

sonsoftaurus said,

...and what was the answer to that FAQ question?

"they are a separate unit"

p.87 does also state "...counts as a *unit* of Troops..." (asterisks added)

Nowhere do the rules state they are one unit.  Nowhere do they state treat them as one unit for VP and two units for everything else.

Continue to believe it's muddled if you wish, but I really think you're trying to unnecessarily complicate it.

Steven Beasley said,

Page 87
For example, a Rhino bought for a Space
Marine Tactical Squad (Troops) counts as a unit of
Troops, but if it was bought for a unit of Veterans
(Elites) it counts as Elites.

Right there it states it counts as a unit of troops if bought for SM Tac Squad. The rhino is it's own unit, what type just depends on the unit it was bought for.

Steven Beasley said,

Also on Page 92 Deploying Forces
Note that occasionally the Codexes allow the player to
include several units in his army at the cost of a single
force organisation slot (like dedicated transports, etc.).
Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units
operate and count as separate units in all respects.

It doesn't get much clearer than that.

gbprime said,

It's all consistent, yes. But not all inclusive. A bunch of separate rules saying the same thing for different aspects of the gamein different places. And that still leaves us stuck with the fact that the rules for unit cohesion and target selection are in... the section on mission selection???

Steven Beasley said,

Actually it is in the organizing a battle section, sub section Deploying Forces.

Mission Selection is a completely different sub section.

Deploying forces is part of every game, regardless if you come up with your own mission or use your own deployment rules if you don't want to use the standard deployment rules. If you come up with your own deployment you could modify this ruling, but it is part of the standard deployment rules.